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Sculpt Nouveau powder blue patina


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#1 AvishaiW

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Posted 16 February 2011 - 11:10 AM

Does anybody have experience with Sculpt Nouveau Powder Blue patina on copper? I tried it today, color is very nice, but it peels off easily. My feeling is that I did not let it react long enough before applying the second layer. Help please.
Thanks

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#2 ShawnM

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Posted 16 February 2011 - 02:17 PM

Does anybody have experience with Sculpt Nouveau Powder Blue patina on copper? I tried it today, color is very nice, but it peels off easily. My feeling is that I did not let it react long enough before applying the second layer. Help please.
Thanks


Yes, I've had the same problem. Try applying it thinner and waiting longer in between coats, but I cannot say with certainty that will solve all of the problem.
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#3 Tony Mertens

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Posted 16 February 2011 - 05:34 PM

I've never had good luck with it either. Too impatient I think.

#4 AvishaiW

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Posted 16 February 2011 - 10:10 PM

Thanks for the help. The powder blue patina that I use is a self made patina that I mixed according to a formula in Ron Young's book. I read it again and in another chapter he says that few drops of Nitric acid added to the patina will cause the patina to bite better to the metal. Will try again today.

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#5 crquack

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Posted 16 February 2011 - 11:01 PM

Can you post photos?

#6 ShawnM

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Posted 17 February 2011 - 05:29 AM

Another thing I've found to be true is that the surface can have a big effect on how the patina sticks. Metal that I put in the blast cabinet ALWAYS takes a finish more securely and evenly than metal with a shiny or satin finish. Of course, sometimes you don't want a matte finish, but roughing it up somewhat from a mirror finish will help.
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#7 warrent

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Posted 17 February 2011 - 08:17 AM

Blues are usually pretty fragile, seems more of a very light bite in the metal, agree with Shawn a rougher surface helps. I myself for blues would rather fume, seems to work better.
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#8 AvishaiW

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Posted 17 February 2011 - 12:08 PM

Good news, I succeeded to get a nice powder blue patina on a piece of scrap copper which does not peel.
I added 5 drops of concentrated Nitric acid to a quarter of cup of the patina and used it for the first layer, so it will bite better into the copper. I let it react for 2 hours, and than repeated with three more layers of patina without acid, and 2 hours drying time between each layer. after the last layer was dry, I washed it in cold water, dried and waxed.
The secret is when applying the patina the metal should not be wet, but only moist with patina. A thin layer adhers much better.

I have another piece fumed in Ammonia (stinks like hell and very corrosive)for 48 hours, but only about 15% of it became blue. How long does it usually take?
As I mentioned, the patina is self made from ammonium chloride and copper chloride with water.
In the photo below is the test piece after waxing


DSCN0624-1.JPG

Avishai
 

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#9 crquack

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Posted 17 February 2011 - 10:20 PM

Good news, I succeeded to get a nice powder blue patina on a piece of scrap copper which does not peel.
I added 5 drops of concentrated Nitric acid to a quarter of cup of the patina and used it for the first layer, so it will bite better into the copper. I let it react for 2 hours, and than repeated with three more layers of patina without acid, and 2 hours drying time between each layer. after the last layer was dry, I washed it in cold water, dried and waxed.
The secret is when applying the patina the metal should not be wet, but only moist with patina. A thin layer adhers much better.

I have another piece fumed in Ammonia (stinks like hell and very corrosive)for 48 hours, but only about 15% of it became blue. How long does it usually take?
As I mentioned, the patina is self made from ammonium chloride and copper chloride with water.
In the photo below is the test piece after waxing



Great!

1) I wondered what "powder blue" colour looked like. I thought yours was more greeny than what I would understand as "powder blue" which is to be expected with ammonium chloride.

2) I have done a few ammonium-fumed patinas: Usually on background of vinegar. The ammonia acts pretty quickly, within hours. My patinas tend more towards blue end of the spectrum (I have been trying to get some ammonium chloride but in Canada it is very difficult. I even tried to make my own with poor results :-) I have had similar results with a salt solution instead of vinegar.

3) I find that surface prep and cleaning is essential. Even after I have done what I consider a thorough clean I may still end up with spots that will either not take the patina or turn pink!

Water-break test is your friend!

4) The method of applying the patina to the surface matters. I have tried brushes, sprays, filter paper and just wiping thin layers on with a rag. The last has worked the best.

5) Most recently I followed a procedure described in the book of Japanese patinas by Eitoku Sugimori. I used the sun-tanpan as a base patina (niage seems universally favoured but I did not have any rokusho) and then put it in the ammonium fume chamber. Not only did I get a nice deep blue but also a nice even coverage which stuck even when attacked with Scotchbrite.

Here is a pic of one of the vinegar-based patinas.

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#10 AvishaiW

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Posted 17 February 2011 - 10:36 PM

Great!

2) I have done a few ammonium-fumed patinas: Usually on background of vinegar. The ammonia acts pretty quickly, within hours. My patinas tend more towards blue end of the spectrum (I have been trying to get some ammonium chloride but in Canada it is very difficult. I even tried to make my own with poor results :-) I have had similar results with a salt solution instead of vinegar.

Here is a pic of one of the vinegar-based patinas.


Nice color. How did you apply the vinegar background? Did you use concentrated acetic acid or household vinegar? Did you dip it in the vinegar and than put it in the ammonia? did you wash it from the vinegar before fuming?

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He who works with his hands and his head - is a craftsman.
He who works with his hands, his head and his heart - is an artist."
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#11 ShawnM

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Posted 18 February 2011 - 05:50 AM

nium fume chamber. Not only did I get a nice deep blue but also a nice even coverage which stuck even when attacked with Scotchbrite.

Here is a pic of one of the vinegar-based patinas.


crquack, if you size your photos to be no more than 800 pixels on the largest side, they will show up MUCH BETTER on most folks' screens. Thanks.
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#12 crquack

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Posted 18 February 2011 - 07:28 PM

crquack, if you size your photos to be no more than 800 pixels on the largest side, they will show up MUCH BETTER on most folks' screens. Thanks.


Done.

#13 crquack

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Posted 18 February 2011 - 07:33 PM

Nice color. How did you apply the vinegar background? Did you use concentrated acetic acid or household vinegar? Did you dip it in the vinegar and than put it in the ammonia? did you wash it from the vinegar before fuming?


I hope this is not a duplicate; My first reply did not show.

1) The vinegar was sprayed on with a perfume bottle bought in a garage sale.
2) The vinegar was household white variety - cheap is the word here!
3) I left the vinegar on the surface and put the piece straight into the fume chamber.
4) As a matter of interest, the sun-tanpan was applied in several layers drying with a hairdryer in between. It was put into the fume chamber dry. It still worked.

#14 ShawnM

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Posted 19 February 2011 - 09:15 AM

Done.


Thank you. Also, I need to say that patina is gorgeous! What is sun-tanpan?
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#15 crquack

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Posted 19 February 2011 - 05:17 PM

What is sun-tanpan?


It's nonsense 'cos I misspelt it! Sorry! Not surprising Google would not find it.
It's su-tanpan and the description in the original source is here (about half way down the page)

http://www.ganoksin....-foundation.htm

#16 ShawnM

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Posted 20 February 2011 - 04:40 AM

It's nonsense 'cos I misspelt it! Sorry! Not surprising Google would not find it.
It's su-tanpan and the description in the original source is here (about half way down the page)

http://www.ganoksin....-foundation.htm


haha, yes I googled it to no avail. Thanks for the link!
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