The Metal Artist Forum

After reading through Matt's demo, I feel somewhat confident this is something I could do. Although I've seen in a few posts that A2 steel is easier because there is no oil quenching. Going by the demo, would you anneal the tools, then let them cool down to 150, THEN go straight to tempering? Are any of the steps different, or using A2 can you completely skip the oil quenching? Also, would the temperatures change for the different kinds of steel, or would you stay the same and anneal at 1500, and temper at 350-400 for > two hours starting at 150. Do you have to wait for 150, what if I was able to remove the tools at 200 degrees, could you start tempering then, or do you need to wait until the temperature drops all the way? Thanks in advance.

A2 is an air quench steel. (no oil) After reaching hardening temperature you simply let it air cool down to around 150f and then temper.
Anneal @ 1500, Harden @ 1750, Temper 350-400.

There is nothing difficult about oil quenching. I mean maybe for long exotic alloy swords but definitely NOT for simple small chasing/repousse tools. Whatever advantage you get from using air-hardening steel is likely to be lost (and then some) in more difficulty in the forging process. Really the common oil quenched steels are the easiest for most people to work with and this is doubly true for beginners.

(07-12-2010 09:00 AM)bigfootnampa Wrote: [ -> ]Whatever advantage you get from using air-hardening steel is likely to be lost (and then some) in more difficulty in the forging process.

They are all pretty easy as long as you have good control over your temperatures. I switched from O2 to A2 for the tools I make for RioGrande because of the ease of using air hardening steel. You don't need a container full of oil around, no mess, and no danger of flash/fire. I just take them out of the kiln and set them on my anvil to cool. It doesn't get any easier than that. I don't forge my tools because there really is no need at this size. I have a set of carving tools I made from 1/2" S7 (really tough) and did forge the tapers on those but I don't remember it being any more difficult than a dozen or so hammer strikes.

To each his own, there are many tool steels that will work well for small tools.

Thanks for the replies so far.

I'm going to have to show my true beginner colors and ask a few more questions. For some reason, I was under the impression that everyone has small kilns, but that apparently is not true. Am I able to use my Paragon Firefly kiln to do this kind of work? If it turns out anyone thinks I'm in over my head, please don't hesitate to tell me so. I'd rather take the hit than burn down my house.

On air quenching, I understand the annealing is a slowly cooling process. I believe the demo says this can take approximately 12 hours. When hardening though, do you remove the tools when it reaches that max temp, and leave them out in the open air or in front of a fan to cool faster? If you take them out right away, can't it damage the kiln to open it while it is so hot?

On oil quenching, how much oil would you need to quench the tools? Could I do this with a pot on a propane grill? I assume that you would harden them right out of the kiln, so the same question about damaging the kiln applies here too. What kind of oil would you recommend? I've seen people recommend regular vegetable oil. I was surprised, because in such a complicated process it just seems overly simple to me.

After annealing, when the metal is soft, is this a good time to do any fine work to the tools? For example, if you wanted to make a textured tool, it seems like it might be easier to do it after annealing than before. Or would that kind of work stress the tool too much and require it to be annealed again?

I think those are all of my questions for now. Thanks.

-Dan

(07-12-2010 06:44 PM)Staker501 Wrote: [ -> ]Am I able to use my Paragon Firefly kiln to do this kind of work?

Yes. And by the way, if you quench in oil it will drip off during tempering and contaminate your kiln.

(07-12-2010 06:44 PM)Staker501 Wrote: [ -> ]On air quenching, I understand the annealing is a slowly cooling process. I believe the demo says this can take approximately 12 hours.

Just set your kiln to the annealing temp and it cool with the lid closed. It will be fine.

(07-12-2010 06:44 PM)Staker501 Wrote: [ -> ]When hardening though, do you remove the tools when it reaches that max temp, and leave them out in the open air or in front of a fan to cool faster? If you take them out right away, can't it damage the kiln to open it while it is so hot?

Yes, remove at max temp and do not use a fan. Your kiln should be fine, I have done this for years.

(07-12-2010 06:44 PM)Staker501 Wrote: [ -> ]On oil quenching, how much oil would you need to quench the tools?

Enough to completely submerge the tool and not heat the oil up too quickly.

(07-12-2010 06:44 PM)Staker501 Wrote: [ -> ]Could I do this with a pot on a propane grill?

Could you do what on a grill?

(07-12-2010 06:44 PM)Staker501 Wrote: [ -> ]I've seen people recommend regular vegetable oil. I was surprised, because in such a complicated process it just seems overly simple to me.

Vegetable oil works great. Not everything has to be hard.

(07-12-2010 06:44 PM)Staker501 Wrote: [ -> ]After annealing, when the metal is soft, is this a good time to do any fine work to the tools?

Annealing should be done after all your shaping is complete. Most tool stock that you buy new is already annealed and soft.

Thanks for the quick reply, Matt.

I'm feeling pretty good about this now, and I have the next three days off. I'm hoping I can make something happen! If I am halfway successful I will try to get some pictures in a new thread.

-Dan

. Things can be simple. For tools like chasing tools I harden only the lower third of the tool by heating it with a torch. The temperature can be measured by color or even more accurate if you take a magnet and touch the heated tip. When the magnet is not attracted to the tool any more, that's the correct temperature. I quench the tools in used motor oil (a container of 5 liter). I find that tools like chasing tools and chisels feel less "springy" in the hand when only the working edge is hardened. The end that touches the hammer may develop a mushroom head with time, but it can be easily removed. On the other hand, because the hammer is not hitting a hardened point , the hammer will not get dents and scars.

Safety alert, Just a reminder about the use of used motor oil of the modern variety. It contains Heavy metals, from the modern vehicle engines wear. It also may contain synthetic oils, detergents, and other oil modifiers. Whether it is called a synthetic on the label or not.

As with using it for heat/oil finishing smith work it is no longer recommend. Due to the vaporization of the materials in the heating. Even the new/unused motor oils can contain stuff you don't want to inhale.

(07-12-2010 09:41 PM)AvishaiW Wrote: [ -> ]. Things can be simple. For tools like chasing tools I harden only the lower third of the tool by heating it with a torch. The temperature can be measured by color or even more accurate if you take a magnet and touch the heated tip. When the magnet is not attracted to the tool any more, that's the correct temperature. I quench the tools in used motor oil (a container of 5 liter). I find that tools like chasing tools and chisels feel less "springy" in the hand when only the working edge is hardened. The end that touches the hammer may develop a mushroom head with time, but it can be easily removed. On the other hand, because the hammer is not hitting a hardened point , the hammer will not get dents and scars.

Do you still temper the entire tool after only hardening part of it?