The Metal Artist Forum

I finally got motivated to build a hydraulic press I have been scribbling on for the last year and a half. I have all my major components. Here's what I got going so far: The spine is a chunk of 18" I-beam that's 7' tall. My cylinder is a 5x16x2, pump is rated at 16 gpm. and my motor is 7.5hp 3 phase (with phase converter)

I have been doing lots of reading on hydraulic noise. I know that hydraulic noise starts at the pump and is created by pulsations in the hydraulic fluid. There is a decent article HERE

Also, THIS company sells noise suppressors and has some info in their brochure. [attachment=9252]

I know there are a few members here that have built presses or work around hydraulics and I'm looking for any information on this subject.

These types of presses all use a high/low gear pump. Most of these pumps are rated at 3600 rpm and 3000 psi. And you need to hit these speeds to obtain these pressures. Reducing pump speed to reduce noise will result in slower ram speeds and that won't work for me.

When searching through you tube, some of the presses seem to have noise levels that would be acceptable. Like these:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6bFFlglDsps
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pl_A4mRGFZk

Then, I see one like this that is obnoxious as hell: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NhGuOYziumg

Anyone have any experience with this?

Matt,

I can't help you specifically. Although, I know most of the pumps I've ever been around (wood splitters, presses, lift gates, fork lifts, farm machinery) have all had some whine and noise.

My suggestion would be to put the motor, tank, and pump out in an enclosure like you did with your tumbler. You could either run the hoses through the wall, or get fancy with a quick connect panel on the inside wall. Any good farm store or hydraulic shop can provide suitable quick connects.

One of the best things I've done in my garage/shop was to remotely locate my 80gal compressor to my yard shed. So much more pleasant than listening to that thing.

Good luck, can't wait to see another finished tool project from you!

-Derek

After watching these I have to ask myself how much mic sensitivity had to do with hyd noise levels.

I've always found the elec (high rpm) hyd pumps annoying but it's easy to remedy by putting the pumps in another room. Make sure they have good ventilation for cooling, putting them in an insulated box is a BAD idea.

Another thing that makes hyd systems noisy is restrictions. This is solved by oversizing the lines, fittings, valves, etc. one size. If you oversize too much it'll slow the system significantly.

IC Engine driven hyd systems are naturally quieter because they have a lot more torque available so they don't need high RPM to supply GPM and PSI.

So, put the pump in another room, oversize the lines, valves and fittings near you one size and use as high HP a motor as practical for lowest RPM with sufficient capacity.

Lastly, if the pump is more than a few feet away use steel line, it's a lot more efficient.

Frosty

Hi Matt, your press is going to be a monster. I ran into MAF when I was building my press and tonnage was my biggest concern. Im using a 5 Hp motor, 11gpm pump(3 @ 3000psi), 4x18 cylinder.....roughly 20T. Ive worked 3" Sq. billets easily, with 1.5 R drawing dies it moves the metal like soft clay. Also is fast enuf with the 2 volume pump. As far as noise goes I get a gear whine like most, and I did like Frosty has suggested with hose and valve/fitting size. I find the noise tolerable, it doesnt drown out the forge. My suggestion would be to think about how much/how long it will be used (duty cycle) and make sure you provide a big enough resevoir to help keep the oil cool. I used 20 litre on mine and it heats up a bit, sometime in the future I may add to this or use a cooler of sorts.....[Smile]Kerry

the thread with my press...http://www.metalartistforum.com/forum/showthread.php?tid=1240&highlight=hydraulic+press

Thanks for the replies!

(03-03-2009 12:42 PM)Frosty Wrote: [ -> ]I've always found the elec (high rpm) hyd pumps annoying but it's easy to remedy by putting the pumps in another room. Make sure they have good ventilation for cooling, putting them in an insulated box is a BAD idea.

As much as I have thought about this and would love to do this I don't think this is going to be feasible for me. The close proximity to the pump is something I am going to have to live with.

(03-03-2009 12:42 PM)Frosty Wrote: [ -> ]Another thing that makes hyd systems noisy is restrictions. This is solved by oversizing the lines, fittings, valves, etc. one size. If you oversize too much it'll slow the system significantly.

Lastly, if the pump is more than a few feet away use steel line, it's a lot more efficient.

I've thought about this as well. If fact, I have been trying to keep everything as close as possible and hard plumb as much as I can. Especially the lines running to the cylinder. I plan to have all plumbing located on "the other side" of the press away from most of the work, and all of it above the ram in its full up position. This is obviously to keep hot metal away from the lines and causing a catastrophic problem. A 3000 psi flame thrower is something I don't want to see while standing in front of it. So, when you say to oversize the lines, for instance: My 16gpm pump has a 1/2 npt output port. Are you saying tp adapt up to something like 3/4" hard lines? The 3/4" hose I have seen is usually rated below 3000 psi. The valve I am looking at is rated at 20 gpm so it is overrated and it has sae 8 ports that will have to be adapted.

(03-03-2009 01:56 PM)KNeilson Wrote: [ -> ]Hi Matt, your press is going to be a monster. I ran into MAF when I was building my press and tonnage was my biggest concern. Im using a 5 Hp motor, 11gpm pump(3 @ 3000psi), 4x18 cylinder.....roughly 20T. Ive worked 3" Sq. billets easily, with 1.5 R drawing dies it moves the metal like soft clay. Also is fast enuf with the 2 volume pump. As far as noise goes I get a gear whine like most, and I did like Frosty has suggested with hose and valve/fitting size. I find the noise tolerable, it doesnt drown out the forge. My suggestion would be to think about how much/how long it will be used (duty cycle) and make sure you provide a big enough resevoir to help keep the oil cool. I used 20 litre on mine and it heats up a bit, sometime in the future I may add to this or use a cooler of sorts.....[Smile]Kerry

the thread with my press...http://www.metalartistforum.com/forum/showthread.php?tid=1240&highlight=hydraulic+press

Kerry, I have had your thread saved for over a year. And your press seems to upset that bar pretty quick at 20 ton. Mine at 3000psi is showing just under 30 tons by the numbers. I am more concerned with speed than I am with tonnage because I know that I could get away with less tonnage if I had to and still work the type of steel I want to.

I don't mine some noise. I'm used to forging with ear protection anyway. I just really want to try to plan ahead with some noise control because it will be easier now than later.
So how much did you up-size your equipment?

Matt- You probably already know this but cast iron is a wonderful vibration dampener. One of the quietest hyd. units I've ever seen was a home made job with the motor and pump separated from the tank and bolted to a big hunk of cast iron, I think it was an old tractor bumper weight. The guy had also used rubber hoses everywhere. Seems like even if it is an easy way to do it putting the pump on top of the tank is kind of like bolting it to a resonating chamber.

-Judson

Hi Matt,

Quote:So how much did you up-size your equipment?

If you mean oversizing the lines and valves......My pump is a "Haldex" 5hp rated, 2.9 gpm on the high side almost 11 on the low. My inlet(suction) is 1" ID, outlet is 1/2 npt to 5/8 id hose. All the pressure lines are 5/8, return line is 3/4 id. The valve is a single spool, #12 orb ports,rated for max continuous 17 gpm. Basically put, one size up on the hoses and 2 sizes up on the valve. My concern was speed too, which is why I put a bigger valve and hoses. I wasnt even thinking about noise. According to my rough calculation, yours will be about 3 sec a Ft slower on high than mine, which is not a whole lot. Something like a second or so more to upset a similar length bar, you`ll be able to go much bigger tho......retracting will be around 3.5 sec/ft which is the same as mine. Some thing I didnt do at first that I added on pretty quick was a limiting switch. I found than with it I could draw much faster and accurate, the press is powerfull(or quick) enuf to go too far at times just under foot control....Kerry

I'm saying go up one size, 1/2 npt turns into 5/8 npt and so on. It's the restrictions that squeal under a load. On the other hand if it means not having hoses rated for what the machine output is don't do it.

Even worse than facing down a hydraulic fluid flame thrower is accidentally walking into the stream of a 3,000psi leak. Visualize oil scalpel. Then there are the health concerns to consider for injected hyd fluid. There isn't such a thing as too cautious where so much power is concentrated in such a small space. However, with a few precautions and a good set up hydraulics are safe, reliable and powerful. I love hydraulics.

Frosty

(03-03-2009 06:54 PM)KNeilson Wrote: [ -> ]According to my rough calculation, yours will be about 3 sec a Ft slower on high than mine, which is not a whole lot.

Sounds like a lot to me. You got me stumped. Based on the specs you posted about your press, I show yours should be around: [attachment=9257] And mine should be around: [attachment=9258] Which is pretty close. Am I figuring something wrong?

(03-03-2009 06:54 PM)KNeilson Wrote: [ -> ]Some thing I didnt do at first that I added on pretty quick was a limiting switch.

I'm so glad you mentioned this. How did you set it up? For the longest time I had one in the plans but recently took it off. Here's what I was going to do and what I am doing now.

Originally, I didn't want to control the upward motion of the cylinder. I wanted to energize the system and send the cylinder up. So my foot control would only control the downward motion. At the time, I figured this would make the foot control easier, and maybe a little safer. If anything ever happened, taking your foot off the pedal would get the ram out of the way. I didn't want the ram to top out and build up pressure until the valve dumped fluid back to the tank. So I though I would Tee off the line and install a nominally closed solenoid valve triggered by a limit switch that would dump straight into the tank if triggered. Thus robbing the cylinder of fluid and stopping its upward motion. I was going to use a magnetic switch mounted on a slide along side the ram so I could position the ram anywhere I wanted. That was the plan.

After some thought I questioned the need for it. Here's how my control system will work. I am using a solenoid valve to control the press. I want to be able to move my foot control around and do not want to use cables to control the valve. HERE is the foot switch I am using and here is the model number:

NEW! -- G503 Triple Switch Models: Includes three switches in each unit. Switches can be adjusted to activate separately or at the same time. Same as standard models above, but with three switches. Model numbers available: G503-MO, G503-MA, G503-AT, G503-MO-2S, and G503-AT-2S.

There are two felt positions in the pedal. The first would send the ram up. Pressing all the way down will disconnect the first switch, activate the second, and send the ram down. Since lifting your toe will stop the ram, do you think a limit switch it still a benefit?

(03-04-2009 12:43 AM)Frosty Wrote: [ -> ]I'm saying go up one size, 1/2 npt turns into 5/8 npt and so on. It's the restrictions that squeal under a load. On the other hand if it means not having hoses rated for what the machine output is don't do it.

I would assume the pressure rating for hard lines would have to be higher than hoses, right? I can't seem to find any info. Also, are there special compression fittings for hydraulic systems?

Hi Matt,

I agree with Frosty that some of the noise that you hear on the videos may be because of some type of sensitivity of the recording medium; my friend's fabrication shop has an enormous hydraulic press break (like maybe 14' long or more that will bend 5/8" steel cold, and it doesn't make much more noise than a big lathe or milling machine running. One possibility to dampen some of the pump noise would be to put the pump itself inside the hydraulic reservoir. As long as the opening to the pump was on the top, sealing around the shaft to the motor should not be too much of a problem. I've seen this on some log splitters where the builder did this so they could use a cheaper vertical shaft gas engine instead of a horizontal one. On my hydraulic log splitter (22 tons w/ 8 hp gas engine) there is virtually no hydraulic pump noise, certainly not the screeching heard in the videos. Interesting discussion.

Take care all,

Dave and One-eyed Eddie on the Edge of America, where it will be in the 70's by week's end